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Thread: koi development

  1. #1

    koi development

    How much can we affect a kois shape, size, skin quality, etc by our pond management.?
    Im not talking about poor pond management leading to poor fish, im talking about good pond management but being tailored to reach a certain goal, genetics will play a role obviously, but for example ive seen a few ponds, that were really good , well cared for etc, but instantly I could tell they didnt heat their ponds because of the shape of all the fish. Some of those fish might have had the genetics to grow really large, but due to water temperatures they tend to grow large only around the belly, they dont attain the length to go with it.
    So I got to wondering how much we can influence the outcome of the fish with things like water temperature, foods, water hardness / softness, light etc, certainly we can easily ruin a good fish!, but could we make a good fish a great one ?

    David



  2. #2
    So are you saying it's impossible to grow big fish without heating the pond?

    Will some not grow as big but just take longer?
    Last edited by kikokuryu John; 07-04-2019 at 11:39 AM.

  3. #3
    No, what im saying is, that in unheated ponds the fish tend to increase in girth more than length, which can lead to an unflattering shape.
    They can still get big, but it will definitely take much longer, and as they age, growing slows down, the first 3 years are when most growth happens, so if you stump that growth for what ever reason, you will probably never be able to recover it, so I think yes, it could possibly prevent them reaching the length they might have reached had they been in heated water.
    As I understand it water temps of 23 c and over are best for growing length, and an unheated pond may never achieve that temperature, even if it does it will be for a very short period in the height of summer, where as heated ponds can hold that temperature quite easily for 6-7-8 months of the year.

  4. #4
    I had high hopes for my karashigoi, it had a decent bit of growth last year.


    I was hoping for it to be big, 80cm+(Not been over ambitious) it think you have just shot down my hopes.

  5. #5
    apologies, that wasn't my intention.
    how much did it grow last year, how old is it ?

  6. #6
    No apologies needed, I'm only kidding.

    I made a thread about it last year, I have not measured it yet this year but have no intentions of pulling it out to do so. But i do think it has grown slightly over winter.

    https://www.koiforum.uk/koi-carp-cha...oi-growth.html
    Last edited by kikokuryu John; 07-04-2019 at 12:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I believe different temperatures have different effects on the Koi.

    Yes, you can stretch genetically capable Koi fast above 23C but kept at those temps long term will impact colouration and skin quality. 18-22 range is where skin quality can be best improved, and possibly even cooler temps for colouration.

    There's a fair bit of info online from Mike Snaden and he will testify that Jumbo (80cm+) can be achieved at 5-6 years old in relatively low temperatures all year round with big growth achieved only in summer.

    I'm pretty sure from memory that he believes soft water is a major key to this achievement, and he regularly talks about TDS so I assume that's a factor too.

    Despite all of the above, I have small Koi that are still small Koi, and small Koi that are now bigger Koi. My best achievement in the first year of proper Koi keeping was a Tosai Shiro growing from 18cm to circa 32cm between mid-June and November (this is with GH around 18, KH 11-14 and Nitrite levels were consistently 1.5 - 2ppm throughout the summer), and I'd say its put on another 2cm over winter. If my conditions were much better it would have probably achieved much more growth, so maybe this particular Koi does have the genetics even though it was the 3rd smallest in the bowl of 10 when I bought it.

    It is fish J in this bowl:
    18cm Tosai Hoshiki Shiro Utsuri Fish J.jpg

    Another thing comes with choosing the fish in the first place - The biggest Koi in a bowl of Tosai or Nisai always seems to sell first on the dealers websites, but does that necessarily mean its genetically ready to be a big Koi? I don't think so. Whilst its the biggest in that bowl, you will never know if that bowl contains only the "runts" which simply makes it the biggest Koi in the group of runts. What I'm saying here is that at Tosai and possibly also at Nisai, the real contenders for Jumbo are not likely to be available to buy.

    To back this up, some Dealers have Jumbo Tosai at 35cm, which to most of us I think is bloody good growth, but browsing through Mike's website he sometimes has Tosai in the 45- 50cm range and Nisai heading for 60cm. Suddenly you're 25cm Jumbo Tosai looks tiny and less likely to have the right genetics.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 07-04-2019 at 01:49 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Further to the above, and I know I'm starting to sound like an advertisement for him lately, but buy a Koi from Mike and he'll work with you to get it to jumbo.

    That's what he said to me anyway.

  10. #9
    this kind of explains why a lot of thie huge koi I've seen tend to have meh colours.

    I do have soft water so hopefully this will help things.

  11. #10
    As an example, pop onto Momotaros website showing hundreds of photos of koi at plus/minus 40cm that were born in c May 2018 making them only about 10 months old. You pay for what you get however and I expect a lot of these tosai will fetch £1,000 plus.

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    Here you go....

    Plenty of articles here about how to get the best possible development out of Koi.

    Only read this one so far and it answers a few of familyman's questions:

    http://www.yumekoi.com/images/storie...udPondMyth.pdf


    And there's a whole series on this page about achieving 80cm+

    Magazine Articles Written By Mike Snaden

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  15. #12
    That's a lot of reading, but it's good to read that even older koi can still have growth spurts if conditions are right.

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  17. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    How much can we affect a kois shape, size, skin quality, etc by our pond management.?
    Im not talking about poor pond management leading to poor fish, im talking about good pond management but being tailored to reach a certain goal, genetics will play a role obviously, but for example ive seen a few ponds, that were really good , well cared for etc, but instantly I could tell they didnt heat their ponds because of the shape of all the fish. Some of those fish might have had the genetics to grow really large, but due to water temperatures they tend to grow large only around the belly, they dont attain the length to go with it.
    So I got to wondering how much we can influence the outcome of the fish with things like water temperature, foods, water hardness / softness, light etc, certainly we can easily ruin a good fish!, but could we make a good fish a great one ?

    David
    Not sure I agree with the correlation between not heating and girth, if a fish hasn't got the frame it will end up chunky even with heat.

    For sure summer (June to November) warmth is important to stretch Koi that have the frame... 23-24C is a nice temp for me.

    What is good and what is great is real subjective; I'd suggest only one Koi in the UK falls into the later category Id agree it is a load easier to trash a Koi than achieve its potential.

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    A bowl of 4 month old Koi at 10-12cm selected by Mike, 8 years ago …. how time flies.

    5 hit 80cm.


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  20. #15
    yeah i agree, you cant just have a hot pond all the time, it can have negative effects on the fish, though perhaps less of a draw back on single colour fish like chags.

    Obviously its not all down to water temperature but its a big part, and I would think Mikes talking about fish hes selected, fish he knows can reach those sizes, I doubt if you would get that growth from your average kohaku from your average koi dealer, or could you?, that was the aim of the thread ,what do we think is possible through good management?.

    I have 3 karashigoi brought exactly a year ago that are 50-55cm now, they were just tiny tosai averaging about 15 cm when I got them, and they have had 5 months of winter, so yes you dont need heat 12 months of the year but they wouldnt be anywhere near that size unheated. I expect them to fly up in to the seventies this year but after that its genetics I think, would you agree?
    To be clear heat isnt the only factor though, because I have a shiro thats a year older and is much smaller, and even 3 more karashigoi from the same batch, having had the exact life in my pond and yet 1 is only low 40-s, so variety plays a part but also the individual fish.

  21. #16
    yeah to be clear im not saying all fish in unheated ponds will end up with big girth, because that depends how much they are fed, which again is down to management.

  22. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai blue harbour's Avatar
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    koi development

    My ponds unheated and non of my fish (that I can recall anyway) are girth monsters or rugby ball shaped or fat bellied hogs either!koi developmentkoi development

    I’d actually say that most of my fish have a nice shape to them, no low hanging fat gutters at all!

    I think one thing that plays a role is the quality of the food your chuckin in, and the amounts too, stocking levels will also play a part to me thinks.

    I read something recently about how much protein koi can absorb, and that very high protein content food can be a waste as the fish can’t absorb it properly and that can lead to colouration of the water and that unsightly foam you can sometimes get too. Don’t know how true that is or whether it’s just “one mans opinion”, but the bit about protein absorption I seem to recall was from some proper scientific study done!?!

    My fish don’t get super high protein content food, and it’s not low end cheap crap food either (which is probably worse), and whilst I could probably feed more than I do I certainly don’t throw it at them by any means and for the most part I’m happy with the growth & body shape I get.

    Am I missing out on potential huge growth by not being heated and being able to extend my growing season, probably but by how much really??

    One thing you will always notice is how some fish are greedier than others, more bullish and usually always 1st to the feed!

    I’ve seen pictures of a few fish (one in particular springs to mind!) where the fish has obviously been eating like a hog, but the body shape was bloody awful, and the fish just looked horrible and obese, and it’s not like the fish I’m referring to was from a non descript breeder/poor blood line either, quite the opposite in fact, so was this just a case of the fish kinda being a “runt of the litter” in a way, or could it have been a greedy fish that was seeing lots of poor quality food maybe!? Or something else entirely?, either way it wasn’t a nice looking fish!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  24. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    yeah i agree, you cant just have a hot pond all the time, it can have negative effects on the fish, though perhaps less of a draw back on single colour fish like chags.

    Obviously its not all down to water temperature but its a big part, and I would think Mikes talking about fish hes selected, fish he knows can reach those sizes, I doubt if you would get that growth from your average kohaku from your average koi dealer, or could you?, that was the aim of the thread ,what do we think is possible through good management?.
    .
    OK understand where you are coming from. "Getting the best from the stock you have?

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    Hi blue,

    RE: Your point about protein absorption, there's a recent Koi Partner video on Youtube where he repeats a couple of times that Koi can only absorb a maximum of 38% protein and any more than that is a waste that can't be digested and ends up as the familiar bubbles on the water surface.

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  27. #20
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Are expectations realistic ? I’d suggest only a few of the Koi you buy will match expectations. This goes across the piste; whether you are buying fish in the £3-£5krange or the £300 -£500 bracket. If buyingat Sansai then greater chance of fulfilment than purchases at Tosai. Maybe 1 in 2 at Sansai, 1 in 10 at Tosai,with Nisai being somewhere in between?

    I do think that the basics of sensible stocking, decentfiltration, appropriate feed and adequate water exchange remain thecornerstones. Drums filtration is great froma convenience angle but I do think that far too many think that it provides anexcuse to overstock… The water is clear – so I can add more Koi.


    Being able to cope with health issues is fundamental, keepingthem alive is important! Then keeping fish healthy and avoiding permanentdamage and scarring follow if you want them to retain the beauty they areblessed with. These all become morechallenging as stocking density increases.


    Thereafter it is the finesse angles; what feed, what temps ,whether you run soft water.. All ofwhich are subjective and can lead to wallet busting expense.

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