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  1. #21
    had the day off today so made a few changes. One problem was that I couldn't turn the aerated b.d off, because I needed the air flow to keep the pond clean, all returned water comes over the shower, so the pond had no flow going round, the only flow was the mushroom effect from the aerated b.d, which works well tbh. So anyway ive added a small gutter to the shower tray exit, that pushes about 30 % of the water one way, thereby creating a flow around the pond, this will keep the pond floor clean, so I can turn off the air to the b.d. Im slowly reducing water temps now so dont think its necessary, especially with having a shower and big aerated bio chamber.
    So im running one less air pump which is 90 watts, variable pump turned down saving 80 watts, winding things up for winter anyway, so a bit less flow is no big deal, and the u.v on in the day time only, dont think I need it at all tbh, saving 200 watts an hour average, which isnt life changing, but the big savings will come from lower water temperatures.
    This week is my last week feeding, my food will have run out by the weekend and the temps going down anyway, think im going to let it go to about 10 c, that will save a fortune compared to what ive done in the past.
    Im going to do a measure up towards the end of the week, or on Saturday, quite excited to see how much they've grown....feeling a bit better now.

    Thanks
    David

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Dave, I've had my UV switched off for over 2 months now and water is still crystal clear.

    Try leaving it off for a few weeks and see what you think.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  4. #23
    Member Rank = Nisai Jasec's Avatar
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    Dave.
    Be interested to see your pond any pics especially the shower and guttering.
    200watt saving is better than nothing.
    As a comparison my pond runs on about 320watts total I admit pond alot smaller than yours but it costs me approx £35-40 a month.
    Jase

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Dave, I've had my UV switched off for over 2 months now and water is still crystal clear.

    Try leaving it off for a few weeks and see what you think.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

    yeah I dont have the u.v on for green water control tbh, only in summer, my ponds enclosed so green water or algea or blanket weed are never a problem. I just keep the u.v going some what, because rightly or wrongly, I feel like it keeps bacteria down a bit, what do you think ?

    David

  6. #25
    Jasec, you can see my set up here....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqzONhZ0ew

    I was using 540 watts an hour, ive trimmed that back to 320 watts an hour actually now, because I just trimmed another 20 watts off my water pump. On top of that the heat pump could be on 24 hours a day in jan and feb using 29 kilowatts alone, I think just to maintain 10 c right through winter the heat pump will only be on about a 3rd of the time it was last winter. I could potentially go from using 40 plus, kilowatts a day last winter to perhaps 12-15 a day, which is a blinking big saving through winter, because the solar panels aren't generating much in winter, so I have to pay for it all.

    David

  7. #26
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Hiya

    How well is the shower protected from the cold, it is never easy as they really need to be able to breathe.

    Personally I'd prefer 8 as a temp rather than 10 or 12.

    Finding the balance of what you want and what fits you in this crazy hobby takes time, you can control that if you avoid getting to wrapped up in hype and don't bow to peer pressure that social media often brings with it.

    Sure that sourcing a decent size GoSanke or at least one that will make a decent size will prove possible

    For sure as the fish get larger you become accustomed to their size as being "normal" and yes when you get there you will wonder what the fuss was about!,

    But immediate term take the drop down in temps slow and controlled, that I think is a critical part of getting them ready for winter..

    Dave

  8. #27
    yeah the showers all insulated, the front of it is actually in the enclosed pond, and can gas off easily, the rear is exposed to outside but its wrapped up in 2 layers of twinwall, double foiled, bubble wrap.

    I do have 1 nice go sanke...well nice to me anyway, got a kohaku off Adam 10-11 weeks ago, when he closed his pond down, it was 73 cm, was a very expensive fish originally, and it looks to be still growing, its really piling some weight on.

    Why would you go to 8 c Dave instead of 10 or 12?

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    thats a brilliant idea, and one I have considered too , but what would be the mechanics, how would you make it work?
    Hi David,

    Having read through the post, I’m glad you’re taking stock and not making any rash decions. For me I can remove the rubber boot that controls the overflow and hence water level in my skimmer but suspect this would reduce volume by only 500 to 1000 gallons. However, at 12 c I’m sure it would make a difference re heating costs.

    I have decided this this year not to cover my pond as per previous years but have draped a tarpaulin over the pergola. I just miss not ha I gotta the interaction for 5 months.

    It’s a really good post. My aim is also to end up with 8 to 10 large koi of half decent quality. For me. Not interested in showing etc.

    The future koi koi pond will be about a sustainable low cost design. Similar to houses etc. We’re not there yet but I’m sure the technology and designs will come.

    For example, I keep thinking could we have the flow from pump back to pond turn a hydraulic propelled / gear that could perhaps run something else.

    Keep your chin up and your koi pond too!

    i
    Last edited by imc28; 12-11-2018 at 07:47 PM.

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  11. #29
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    yeah the showers all insulated, the front of it is actually in the enclosed pond, and can gas off easily, the rear is exposed to outside but its wrapped up in 2 layers of twinwall, double foiled, bubble wrap.

    I do have 1 nice go sanke...well nice to me anyway, got a kohaku off Adam 10-11 weeks ago, when he closed his pond down, it was 73 cm, was a very expensive fish originally, and it looks to be still growing, its really piling some weight on.

    Why would you go to 8 c Dave instead of 10 or 12?
    Hiya, because when you get below 13C the fish will have no real immune response, so keeping them at 12,10 or 8 will make no real difference but as temp falls the lifecycle of most parasites drops off. Some suggest that a safer temp is to drop things down to as low as 4C where aeromona bacteria will not develop but personally my preference would be 8 as its a lot closer to giving them warmth should you need to. My take is that the strategy for winter needs to be a complete one with the various elements complimenting each other, there is a big temptation to feed but at winter temps the fish don't need it and by feeding you increase pollution.

    What you want to avoid is to get too nervous and then break the bank by heating to 15C "to be safe" and then decide to ditch the hobby without dipping your toe in the water - many, many Koi keepers run their ponds cool through the winter.

    Dave

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  13. #30
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Kyusai 1meterchag's Avatar
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    Dave, could you explain your own tempreture and feeding procedure over winter?

    Alex

  14. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    yeah I dont have the u.v on for green water control tbh, only in summer, my ponds enclosed so green water or algea or blanket weed are never a problem. I just keep the u.v going some what, because rightly or wrongly, I feel like it keeps bacteria down a bit, what do you think ?

    David
    Depends if you have a UV Clarifier or Steriliser.

    Whilst I've no scientific knowledge on the subject of UVs, I'll try and comment/guess anyway....

    Clarifiers don't prevent algae but instead damage it enough so it clumps together and the filter then removes it, whereas a steriliser operates at a wavelength that prevents algae from getting a hold in the first place as well as killing microorganisms/bacteria that go past.

    I read that destruction of bacteria/parasites passing a UV light requires up to 30w per 1000 gallons (Absolute Koi figures) depending on the wavelength, additionally an extremely slow flow rate through the UV to achieve long enough contact time.

    If clarifiers were proven to be powerful enough to kill bad bacteria / parasites etc, then I'm sure the manufacturers would be shouting that from the roof tops, but they aren't and there's no hint of this capability on any packaging I've seen either. I think they are designed for as fast a flow as possible which doesn't offer enough exposure to damage much beyond single celled algae.

    If on the other hand you have a Steriliser then I guess it's sensible to keep it on or at least cycled on and off throughout each calendar day.

  15. #32
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1meterchag View Post
    Dave, could you explain your own tempreture and feeding procedure over winter?

    Alex
    Hi Alex

    2000G Wildlife pond as always will run with the stat set at 6C. I haven't put the covers on yet so it is still dropping down, the fish haven't been fed for a couple of weeks.

    6000G Main pond, ran the temps down a lot earlier this year, currently at 16C with covers on fish not getting much feed circa 700gm a day. Pleased with the results from there this year I piled a load of feed in August to October, didn't do them any favours condition wise but since knocking the feed back they are sparkling. Whilst the temps are mild I will leave it at 16C but when the conditions allow (another couple of weeks? ) and the leaves have stopped falling I will knock off the feed / lift off one section of the covers to get it down to 8 or below, remain there until the temps are on the rise so I can get them up to spawning temps and condition by start of May.

    Inside 4000G Nisai / Sansai tank, I will run at 16C, a few of the girls need to burn off a bit of fat so Dec to end March no feed. Reality being that I spend a fair amount of winter time in there and want it to be T shirt temps in the evenings. Its a pain as a couple of them are really starting to take off growth wise and would be nice to push them on through the winter in the quest for an 80cm Yonsai but always a balance.

    Fry tanks remain at 24C.. They get covered when the condensation becomes too big an issue.

    Plan is to get the gas consumption down substantially on last winters £500 a month

    What's your regime?

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  17. #33
    Member Rank = Nisai AJB's Avatar
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    This is really interesting for me as a novice. My approach currently is to have two ponds and through the winter the fish are all in a smaller pond that is 4 feet deep and about 2000 gallons. It is an insulated fibreglass pond, outdoors and soil backed on one side (which is a high degree of insulation) then the pond, filters and pipework area all insulated within a 2” thick oak pond surround.

    I have a very small amount of heat, that is an adjunct to our oil central heating system and an emergency back up in case of freezing. The pond is covered in 35mm multilayer plexi insulation about 4 inches above water level, with vent gaps, and air runs all the time.

    I often wonder how people take pond temperature. This is only our third year of Koi keeping and in the past we had a pond shallower and no heat. It is an ornamental garden pond and I am not that fussed about fish growth rates and happy to accept growth only in the warmer seasons. Therefore, we made the decision to rely heavily on insulation and covering, and allow temperatures to fall to around 6 to 8 degrees fairly naturally (covering reduces thermal shocks I hope).

    We are not feeding now (or only minimally), so water filter flow rates have been reduced, as the fish are producing less waste and I have cut back on the volume of water changes. Based on this thread I think I will turn the UV off.

    The interesting thing is to compare temperatures at the top and bottom of the pond. At 4 feet deep and with low bottom drain flow the bottom temperature is usually about 2 degrees higher than the surface. The surface is currently at 12 degrees at night and up to 14 degrees during the day, especially if sunny. The fish remain active.

  18. #34
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJB View Post
    The interesting thing is to compare temperatures at the top and bottom of the pond. At 4 feet deep and with low bottom drain flow the bottom temperature is usually about 2 degrees higher than the surface. The surface is currently at 12 degrees at night and up to 14 degrees during the day, especially if sunny. The fish remain active.
    Above 4 degrees the natural temperature gradient is higher toward the top of the pond, as you go down from 5 to 4 the situation swaps over and below that it is warmest at the bottom. Basically the density of water is highest at 4deg C. I have measured water at above 3 degrees at the bottom of my pond when largely frozen over at the top.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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  20. #35
    Member Rank = Nisai AJB's Avatar
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    That's helpful. I will measure top and bottom through winter. Oddly enough there is also a 1 degree difference from one end to the other. This is probably caused by the filter return.

    On a slight tangent, we have spent a lot of time in Japan, and visited a LOT of gardens all over Japan as my wife is a keen horticulturist and I am keen on design. We have seen a lot of natural looking large Koi ponds. Often quite shallow. These ponds may well have water through flow from streams, and without doubt are unheated through winter. They ice up (except for flow areas) and can be surrounded with snow. I am wondering if we fret a bit too much here in the UK.

  21. #36
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    In my early days of keeping koi we had some particularly cold winters and I had no heat at all. The pond froze over apart from a small area where the water returned from the filter. I didn't loose any koi. In later years I have had an issue in the spring with Japanese tosai coming through their first winter - I think a totally unheated pond can be a bit of a shock to fish that have been grown fast in heated ponds. I now try to maintain 5 degrees over winter - not that I have tosai anymore.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  22. #37
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJB View Post
    That's helpful. I will measure top and bottom through winter. Oddly enough there is also a 1 degree difference from one end to the other. This is probably caused by the filter return.

    On a slight tangent, we have spent a lot of time in Japan, and visited a LOT of gardens all over Japan as my wife is a keen horticulturist and I am keen on design. We have seen a lot of natural looking large Koi ponds. Often quite shallow. These ponds may well have water through flow from streams, and without doubt are unheated through winter. They ice up (except for flow areas) and can be surrounded with snow. I am wondering if we fret a bit too much here in the UK.
    If you consider a couple of questions –1) How long should a Koi live for ? 2) Why does the high demand for Koi exist? You start to get an idea of how many don’t get through their first UK winter.
    In a suitable pond they have a decent chance. Yes we fret, at times too much, but the harsh reality is that too many don’t fret at all and sadly see stocking their water feature as an annual event.
    Last edited by Davej; 14-11-2018 at 08:14 AM.

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  24. #38
    Not been on the koi scene for about 15 years, but the general school of thought was maximise your surface area, and then get as deep as you can afford, but no less than 3ft to ensure temperature variations were minimised.

  25. #39
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunksta View Post
    Not been on the koi scene for about 15 years, but the general school of thought was maximise your surface area, and then get as deep as you can afford, but no less than 3ft to ensure temperature variations were minimised.


    I think now the range recommended is between 4 and 6 feet. Shallower and there is a risk of freezing and deeper is reckoned to be a waste and possibly detrimental to the fish.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  26. #40
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Simon Fish's Avatar
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    This is an interesting thread.
    My pond is 7500lt, with a 1000lt attached pond,( soon to be adapted to a cat litter tray - biocenosis baskets)
    I was getting carried away with ideas of redoing it bigger.
    just need to keep the stock level balanced.

 

 
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