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  1. #1

    perfect size pond?

    Whats the pertfect size in gallons for a koi pond, mines 5500 and if i was rebuilding i would go no more than 3,000, but id lessen depth from 6ft to 4ft to keep the surface area. Its well proven now that you dont need a big pond to grow big fish, but what you do need, to fill a huge pond with half decent fish is to be a millionaire, and sooner or later we all want half decent fish, I remember building my pond and saying expensive Japanese fish are not, the be all and end all, and that id be happy with cheapo Israeli fish, a few years later and I have no Israeli fish .

    With 3000 gallons, one water pump would run it, and all running costs would be much easier to swallow, energy, meds, food etc, compared to what I currently have to spend.
    I see folks building big ponds, spending thousand of pounds and ignoring advice from people that i would class as experts, and I have to wonder if they realise what they are undertaking, many dont even consider heating, and on some of the designs I see, heating would be impossible, I know its expensive but for me heating is a must otherwise for half of the year your hobby goes into hibernation, and when its really cold you wont even see your fish, because all they will do is huddle together on the bottom. Eventually I think everyone realises they need to heat, because they are losing expensive fish, or at least having many more problems.
    If you cant afford to heat you cant afford koi imo, apologies if that sounds harsh but its what I believe, so if you cant afford to heat, then build a smaller pond would be my advice, so that you can afford it.
    I wouldnt have ever kept koi if I couldn't heat the water , simple as that.
    Ive currently got 2 x water pumps, 2 x air pumps, heat pump, drum filter and u.v that when combined with my home are drinking 60 kilowatts per day through the winter, and I really struggle to justify that.
    If I could easily down size to about 3,000 gallons I would, and yes im in the trade, I could do it quickly but id be spending short term to save in the long term, and when your wobbling in the hobby thats not the wise thing to do.

    So im considering ways to reduce costs because the pond costs more to run than the house , and the house is large!.
    One thing ive done already is doubled my loft insulation yesterday. Normally in spring our bills go up due to the excessive energy consumption through the winter, so im hoping to drastically reduce that over this winter, so that come next spring our bills wont be sky high again.
    Our house, going by internet averages should use 4,500 kilowatts of electricity per year, last year we used 15,000 , If our house would run on 4,500 kilowatts per year, then our solar panels would almost completely run our home because they produce 4,400 kilowatts per year, so id go from big leccy bills to almost no leccy bill.



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  3. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Agree with what you are saying David as my pond is 3000 gals [ 4 x 3 mtrs by 4 ft deep ] but when i was building it was intending to be 5 ft deep as i think that is the ultimate but i hit the water table so i had to go shallower but with no regrets as it is working fine.
    As you say David you have to think of medication heating etc when thinking of size.
    To be honest i wouldnt want my pond any bigger as you have to think of catching them and that is hard enough with the smaller ones.

    Are you having second thoughts David in down sizing.
    When i built my pond it was just after your build and on the same lines ie hollow block dry stacked and i would do the same again
    great idea.
    John

  4. #3
    yeah thanks John, just feeding a big well stocked pond of big fish, costs more than I think many newbie pond builders would even comprehend.
    Some folk spend 150 quid a sack on saki and its gone in a matter of days.
    Yes id like to down size tbh, and I could do it all myself, but its all the hassle of homing the fish while I do it etc, I just dont know what to do, be nice if I could just tip concrete in, to raise the floor by 2 feet but its not that easy is it.

    As you say ponds like lakes might look impressive but how do you monitor your fish, its not easy in any pond without a window, so many times i have spotted a small wound that needs treating, how do you over come that obstacle when your pond is a lake?

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  6. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai blue harbour's Avatar
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    Well you know mine Dave, I’m just shy of 3000gal, 5ft deep.

    I can see what you’re saying about heating in a way, but I’m not sure I 100% agree.

    I’d say 3-4000gal but keeping the 5ft depth personally would be ideal volume wise.

    Imho I bet most of the people who take up koi/fish keeping drastically underestimate how much it will ultimately end up costing them in the long run, and I also think a lot of it stems from bad advice/thinking you know better/ignorance and lack of experience too!

    To be perfectly honest now I know what I know, I’d never take up koi keeping again I don’t think, I’ve personally found it to be to stressful in one way or the other - especially for the enjoyment I get out of it versus the actual amount of time I actually spend up at my pond with my fish!!

    Must admit I’m currently contemplating whether to quit the hobby and sell up, but it’s the wrong time of the year for that isn’t it, and with all the money I’ve already spent quitting now does kinda seem stupid as god only knows what I’d do with the emptied and defunct pond if I did close it down, let alone all the money I’d loose on what I’ve spent!


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  8. #5
    yeah same position as me.
    I feel more like id like to downsize than sell up altogether but that option means more cost, so I either have to continue and make everything as efficient as possible, hoping I can cut costs big time, or just give up.
    I love my fish but I could quite happily just keep my favourite half dozen in a much smaller pond...hence my thread, what size pond?

  9. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai blue harbour's Avatar
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    Well how much volume would it reduce yours by if you took 1-1.5ft depth out of it!?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #7
    2 foot reduction would reduce the volume by a 3rd.

  11. #8
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    Whats the pertfect size in gallons for a koi pond, mines 5500 and if i was rebuilding i would go no more than 3,000, but id lessen depth from 6ft to 4ft to keep the surface area. Its well proven now that you dont need a big pond to grow big fish, but what you do need, to fill a huge pond with half decent fish is to be a millionaire, and sooner or later we all want half decent fish, I remember building my pond and saying expensive Japanese fish are not, the be all and end all, and that id be happy with cheapo Israeli fish, a few years later and I have no Israeli fish .

    With 3000 gallons, one water pump would run it, and all running costs would be much easier to swallow, energy, meds, food etc, compared to what I currently have to spend.
    I see folks building big ponds, spending thousand of pounds and ignoring advice from people that i would class as experts, and I have to wonder if they realise what they are undertaking, many dont even consider heating, and on some of the designs I see, heating would be impossible, I know its expensive but for me heating is a must otherwise for half of the year your hobby goes into hibernation, and when its really cold you wont even see your fish, because all they will do is huddle together on the bottom. Eventually I think everyone realises they need to heat, because they are losing expensive fish, or at least having many more problems.
    If you cant afford to heat you cant afford koi imo, apologies if that sounds harsh but its what I believe, so if you cant afford to heat, then build a smaller pond would be my advice, so that you can afford it.
    I wouldnt have ever kept koi if I couldn't heat the water , simple as that.
    Ive currently got 2 x water pumps, 2 x air pumps, heat pump, drum filter and u.v that when combined with my home are drinking 60 kilowatts per day through the winter, and I really struggle to justify that.
    If I could easily down size to about 3,000 gallons I would, and yes im in the trade, I could do it quickly but id be spending short term to save in the long term, and when your wobbling in the hobby thats not the wise thing to do.

    So im considering ways to reduce costs because the pond costs more to run than the house , and the house is large!.
    One thing ive done already is doubled my loft insulation yesterday. Normally in spring our bills go up due to the excessive energy consumption through the winter, so im hoping to drastically reduce that over this winter, so that come next spring our bills wont be sky high again.
    Our house, going by internet averages should use 4,500 kilowatts of electricity per year, last year we used 15,000 , If our house would run on 4,500 kilowatts per year, then our solar panels would almost completely run our home because they produce 4,400 kilowatts per year, so id go from big leccy bills to almost no leccy bill.
    Your post is very interesting David.

    I often also cringe when I read threads on potential new pond builds where people are planning a large koi pond and yet quibbling about the difference in cost between pressure pipe and waste pipe. If your budget is that tight, then I personally think koi are a huge mistake. Just from experience watching the forums, people who think an extra £100 on pipework or valves is a 'rip off' will not deal well with needing to rush out and buy a microscope and treatments to to try and save the koi they have already bought.

    There are a lot of people online doing things on a budget and being quite evangelical about it. Many of them don't seem to last long in the hobby. The way I look at things is that if I have a hobby that gives me many hours of pleasure in a month then I fully expect to pay a few hundred quid for that. If I didn't have that kind of disposable income then I would look at doing something cheaper for a hobby. I would never have kept koi to the level I currently do when my kids were growing up for example- because any spare money I had would have gone on paying for holidays and entertainment for them.

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  13. #9
    Hi David,

    something I’ve been contemplating is a summer and winter volume. I can change the overflow height and reduce pond volume by about 1000 gallons and hence it’s water I’m not heating in the winter and the koi don’t need the volume this time of year. Then just reverse in spring. Just an idea we should perhaps all consider. Could even follow approach during medications.

    your right. It is expensive but so was carp fishing when I used to go. It’s what I choose to waste my money on and I personally get far more enjoyment out of keeping koi than it will ever cost me.

    i don’t think you need to be wealthy, just wise!

    hope you do what’s right for you.

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  15. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    If I were you I would start by turning the temperature down - provided you don't do it too suddenly the fish will be fine. Mine are swimming about perfectly happily at 8 degrees. Keeping your pond at just above 5 degrees wont cost much at all especially with your heat pump.

    At lower temperatures you wont need to feed much if anything + if you have variable speed pumps you can turn them down to. So very little cost over the winter. In the spring you may feel differently - in any case it will be a better time of year to move some of your less favoured koi on. Heating and feeding heavily are not necessary - you may even find that the fish benefit from a winter break.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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  17. #11
    I Agree, 3000 gallon in my eyes is perfect, the pond at my old house was 3000 and next year ill be building another 3000, i was contemplating 5000 but ive decided quality over quantity with fish and a nice manageable size

  18. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Hi David

    Yes it is a crazy hobby,

    What's your annual heating regime? Is the pond covered and what feed do you use?

    The winter and particularly the "shoulder" month heating topic is a difficult one. You invest more in stock and naturally want to protect them and fulfil their potential, the problem is that the costs of this can get silly. I totally agree that some form of temperature control is essential but wouldn't see great risk in healthy, mature koi running through a winter with a stat set at 6C. Yes it takes some confidence... For this defensive heating, gas will knock spots off an ASHP. and personally I don't feed at all if I am running a pond at temps of less than 10C.

    Extending the season by heating through the shoulder months is an extravagance, yes you will get growth but at considerable cost... I suspect here lies your dilemma? Just because you have a heater you don't have to use it!

    Ideal is a well insulated indoor set up, with decent sun penetration, Nisai house 4000 gallons tank runs at a fraction of the cost of the main pond, it is particularly good through the shoulder months as a tad of sun and the air temps rocket in there.

    Feed wise - Ive got through 25 sacks of Coppins this year. saving £80 a pop against Saki Hikari used in previous years ….cant tell any difference in the fish...


    Hope my ramblings help …..but yes its not easy.

    Dave

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  20. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Costs are relative to what you want out of the hobby.

    We all know people with a small hole in the ground, a pump and filter, feeding tetra sticks once a day (when they remember), who've kept Koi trouble free for decades. Their biggest job is getting round to cleaning the filter out every few Months, yet they gain lots of enjoyment sitting in the garden by the pond throughout the summer. To these people Koi keeping is still their hobby, but they don't think twice about going on holiday for a fortnight and leaving the pond to look after itself.

    The costs only start to pile in when you're so into the hobby it becomes almost competitive. This could happen to me, but hasn't yet.

    My other hobby is ("was" really) drag racing classic cars. Built the car, put a bigger engine in and posted some impressive times. Then you see other people's times in your class and suddenly you want more power.... Then it starts getting expensive, to be at the top of your game you find yourself spending £1000's to shave off 10th of a second. Would spending £3000 to shave off 3/10ths of a second make any noticeable difference when driving back home on the public road? Probably not.

    So maybe the key is to consider what you are trying to achieve from the hobby, because if costs are high it's definitely more than just keeping a few Koi in a pond for summer enjoyment. How important is it to have such a large water volume? How important is it to grow Koi fast? How important is it to still enjoy the hobby throughout the winter? How important is it to feed the best quality food when we all know they can still live happy healthy lives on cheaper food with some live food which can be harvested for free.

    Not exactly Koi but I've bred and showed fancy goldfish for 30 years (haven't bothered entering fish for years now), obviously they don't need the water volume Koi need, but I was winning trophies from home bred fish (had 9 in one year once), I never heated (current year fry would be wintered indoors) and outdoor losses, despite being painful at times, were natures way of culling. Yes, my fish house was constructed of rotten wood with a tarpaulin roof, my ponds were home made fibreglass or free panes of glass from dumped shop displays bonded together, extension leads running through a hole in the wall.... it definitely wasn't pretty, and yes this particular fish house did burn down in the end! But my costs were totally negligible compared to the big shots with state of the art equipment, yet on the show scene I was thought of as an expert. I'm sure people felt sorry for me when they visited and saw what I was working with! I just didn't have the money to do it any differently but still achieved great results.

    EDIT: Just to add, my Koi pond is under circa 1700 gallons (8 Koi). I want more Koi and I want to reduce risks from disease/water quality etc, so I plan to increase it to 3000 gallons in February/March. Should I stick with what I have and just enjoy it? Am I entering the slippery slope to it becoming an expensive hobby?
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 12-11-2018 at 12:09 AM.

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  22. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Think David you need to lower your temps,slow everything down in the pond and just let it tick over for the winter and sort it all in the spring.
    Then move on a few and just keep what you want,i know it is hard as i have done it myself and need to do it again in the spring but my costs went up a lot this year due to them growing more so eating more.
    Think you feed Q/k food so your costs are ok there,see if you can run your pond on one pump turned down if a variable over the winter,uv off etc
    You dont really want to give up so i would sit on it for a while David and see how you feel come spring time.
    Only you can make the decision all we can do is advise and the way i see it is you love your koi and dont relly want to give up.

    Good luck with your decision David.
    John

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  24. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by imc28 View Post
    Hi David,

    something I’ve been contemplating is a summer and winter volume. I can change the overflow height and reduce pond volume by about 1000 gallons and hence it’s water I’m not heating in the winter and the koi don’t need the volume this time of year. Then just reverse in spring. Just an idea we should perhaps all consider. Could even follow approach during medications.

    your right. It is expensive but so was carp fishing when I used to go. It’s what I choose to waste my money on and I personally get far more enjoyment out of keeping koi than it will ever cost me.

    i don’t think you need to be wealthy, just wise!

    hope you do what’s right for you.

    thats a brilliant idea, and one I have considered too , but what would be the mechanics, how would you make it work?

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  26. #16
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    In a way I have an adjustable volume pond. By pulling a leaver and pushing another I can convert my 9000g pond to a 6000g pond by bypassing the Anoxic/lily pond. It is running as one pond at the moment but when the wind turns to the north and temperatures tumble I will pull those levers before applying emergency heat.

    I don't think there is a perfect size for a koi pond. There are so many variables including the intensity or intervention level, your available funds and space and what aspect of the hobby really interests you. You could have everything between someone who has a lake with a few koi swimming in it to something that resembles a dealers display pond and is basically a large fish tank with RO and massive filtration to back it up. In both cases the owner could get a lot of pleasure from their hobby. I think the problem is if you start to get into the "grow the best fish as fast as possible" stakes the costs really escalate fast.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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  28. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai blue harbour's Avatar
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    Dave, I’ve not been down yours for a while so I’m not sure what you’re currently doing or not but couldn’t you:-

    1) Shut your smaller pump off (less overall flow, but do you really need it anyway!?)

    2) if your UV is on shut that off (I don’t think you run it much anyway do you!?)

    3) as suggested lower your temps right down so the ashp isn’t on much (if at all!), after all your pond is completely enclosed anyway so i doubt it could ever freeze - not with the temps we get anyway!

    Maybe even turn your pump down and stop the feed for the winter period!?

    You don’t need the air on in the pond (if you’re running a 2nd air pump), that little lot combined will surely reduce your running costs right down over winter at least!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  30. #18
    Thanks Dave, in answer to some of your questions..
    my pond stands a meter above ground and a meter below ground, every winter I wrap the above ground meter in 3 layers of twin wall foiled bubble wrap, ive taken the temperature difference on a frosty morning between outside air temp and the temp behind the insulation, it makes a huge difference, the difference in temperature was into double figures.

    I wrap all pipes, the sheds insulated and the filters and bio chamber in the shed are insulated again, because I dont want to pay to heat the shed, the ceiling above the pond is triple wall polycarb with flat sheets of polystyrene on top of that, and from the pond wall to the ceiling is all done in triple wall poly carb, its completely enclosed all year round, apart from the rare occasions when the temps are high for prolonged periods.
    My heat pump is way undersized, its a dura plus 7 on 5500 gallons, but even now it will hold my pond at 24 c easily, and thats down entirely to thermal efficiency.

    I feed queni premium growth 52 quid for 15 kilos delivered. Regarding heating, yes I am my own worst enemy, I always want to extend the season as much as possible with heat and lots food. Ponds been at 24 c until recently, now its at 21.5c, id kind of decided I would just finish my current batch of koi food, and then do like Mike Snaden suggested, which was drop water temps to 12c and just stop feeding all together till spring. Maybe I could go lower to 10c?.

    I dont have any really expensive fish, none of them have cost me a lot, some of them are now worth a fair bit I suppose, my only goal is to have a pond with maybe 8 -10 really big jumbo fish, doesnt matter to me if they are from a particular breeder, or if they are show class, I just want some nice jumbo fish. Having said that, theyre all now Japanese and all my chags bar 1 are either hirasawa or marudo, so I have gone for the right fish I think, but ive brought them small and grown them myself. they are single colour fast growing fish, as long as they are a nice shape, good scalation, I cant see the point of paying through the nose for one when I can grow them myself in a few years
    I realise I cant ever afford to do this with go sanke varieties or similar, which is why ive concentrated on chags, karashigoi, and is why I wanted the Mukashi, and to be fair ive now got some large fish.
    Thing is in this game nothing happens fast enough does it ?, ive got multiple fish that have grown incredible this year, but some how its never enough, and then eventually when I have my 8 jumbos in the pond, what then ?

    Its like your always working towards something but what happens when you have achieved it, you think life would be amazing "If only you had such and such " so you work to get it, but then when you do get it nothings any different, and you realise that actually it wasn't that important really.


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  32. #19
    really appreciate everyones thoughts, thank you
    David

  33. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by blue harbour View Post
    Dave, I’ve not been down yours for a while so I’m not sure what you’re currently doing or not but couldn’t you:-

    1) Shut your smaller pump off (less overall flow, but do you really need it anyway!?)

    2) if your UV is on shut that off (I don’t think you run it much anyway do you!?)

    3) as suggested lower your temps right down so the ashp isn’t on much (if at all!), after all your pond is completely enclosed anyway so i doubt it could ever freeze - not with the temps we get anyway!

    Maybe even turn your pump down and stop the feed for the winter period!?

    You don’t need the air on in the pond (if you’re running a 2nd air pump), that little lot combined will surely reduce your running costs right down over winter at least!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    yeah some good common sense things to consider, I have actually done a couple of them already, I was going to let my water temp drop a bit more then turn off the air also.

 

 
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