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  1. #1

    A matter of size

    Hi everyone,

    This subject has been covered many times, but its what interests me more so than ever now, I plan to buy 8 koi from Tosai off a particular dealer at quite a large price, as you can imagine these koi will be small and I want to eventually get them to 70cm+ I would like some info on your set up for growing koi, I understand genetics,heat,food,water quality, I was more interested in how much food and how many times per day do you feed your koi? also the amount of koi you have in your ponds? Have you found a particular food better than the rest for quality growth? and an ideal temperature they seem to grow better at?

    I find it relatively easy to grow koi up to 55cm, but there seems to be a slow down then, and I was wondering if there was something I maybe missing, probably patience



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  3. #2
    they all slow down a lot once they get up near 70 cm it seems or at 4 years old, 1st 3 years they seem to rocket up, it seems like growth in terms of length, roughly halves every year of age for the 1st 5 years or so, and then they just stick an inch or so on a year. Its a bit frustrating because you see them rocket up and you want that growth to keep going and going, year on year, but inevitably it doesn't ,lol.
    So like my chags and the like seem to go roughly 40 cm at 1, 60 cm at 2, 70 cm at 3, 75 cm at 4, but this varies quite a lot, ive got one chag thats gone from 62 cm in December last year, to 74 cm now, this is only its 3 rd season and its still stretching length wise, with out bulking out much at all, ive got another at 66cm thats slower growing on the length but its bulked out much more. This one was brought as small tosai in april 2016, it was 43cm april 17 and 62 cm april 18. I think they will mostly all hit somewhere in the 70's at 4 year old but after that i think its genetics.

    I think at 3 years and over just getting the amount of food into them, that they need to keep growing can be tricky, because, I think its roughly for every 10 cm they stretch they double in weight, thats heaps of food, and so if you have quite a few fish, you then might find your filters start to struggle. so you cant feed as much as you need too, or your water quality drops which affects growth again.

    I think things like growth vary a lot with which variety of koi your growing too, and also the sex. ive got a 2 year shiro thats smaller than all 6 of my 1 year karashigoi.
    Most of mine are single colour fish which grow faster and bigger than average anyway normally, thats why I like them.

    Ive had my best year yet tbh, much less problems with parasites, since I used supaverm earlier this year every things been great, and i have been wondering what factors have contributed to a better season, the things I think that have helped are …

    no parasite problems
    highly aerated water
    installation of 3 pod water purifier
    new filters with massive bio capacity, so really good water with a constant p.h
    drum filter so no crud sitting in the system for days
    ive been feeding queni koi growth food, waters been 23 - 24 c all season, and growth has been really good. Got 2 nisai that have grown 29-30 cm since December 17, and ive got another 6-8 weeks yet before I dial the water temps and feed back.
    I have 6 karashigoi brought in april 18 at 16 cm, they are all 40 cm or over now, ranging from 40 - 43 ish, they are all from the same batch but theres all different shapes and sizes, im intrigued as to how they will progress next year. Will the larger ones continue to grow faster, will the fat one lean out or is it just going to always have a massive body, which will turn out to be male, and which ones females, and with subtle clues im seeing now , can I predict that.....and of course will any of them make future jumbos !

    Respect to anyone who grows their own fish from tosai to anything even approaching jumbo, there are just so many pitfalls waiting to hinder progress.

    excuse all my waffle, its just something im very interested in also.

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  5. #3
    Interesting thoughts, how many feeds per day are you giving them?

    Whats the gallonage of your pond and how many koi do you have?

    And what temps do you tend to keep at through year?

    I'm trying to drip feed every hour between 6am and 10pm I;m holding 22c at moment, and would like to keep it at that until December, I'll cool it down then to 13c and hold that until April before cranking it back up, I know what your saying regarding growth rate from Tosai to Nisai, they seem to shoot, its from then on I find things slow down a little

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  7. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by koicrazysteve View Post
    Interesting thoughts, how many feeds per day are you giving them?

    Whats the gallonage of your pond and how many koi do you have?

    And what temps do you tend to keep at through year?

    I'm trying to drip feed every hour between 6am and 10pm I;m holding 22c at moment, and would like to keep it at that until December, I'll cool it down then to 13c and hold that until April before cranking it back up, I know what your saying regarding growth rate from Tosai to Nisai, they seem to shoot, its from then on I find things slow down a little

    my feeder starts at 7 am and finishes at 4 pm, at which point I feed them myself, the feeder does 18 single unit ( small) feeds, I give them another 3 feeds before bedtime equalling about another 10 units, theyre having about 450-500 grams a day. Ive got 14 fish that are mature or large and 8 that are tosai.
    Ponds 5500 gallons, I do pretty much same as you, 14c through winter, ramping up in april to 23 then 24 through autumn, and I keep feeding like that as long as possible before winter forces otherwise, but slowing down as water temps fall.

  8. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Never easy Chris as buying and growing on Tosai will always be a gamble.

    You have to accept that if you are buying Japanese fish, unless you are paying very significant amounts for "special" koi you are looking at fish that have been rejected by the breeder.

    Guess if you are after Tosai you will not be looking to buy until late spring next year?

    What variety are you considering? If you simply want fish that will get big then have a chat with Adam Byer and see if you can pinch some of his Mukashi spawn

    Dave

  9. #6
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Never easy Chris as buying and growing on Tosai will always be a gamble.

    You have to accept that if you are buying Japanese fish, unless you are paying very significant amounts for "special" koi you are looking at fish that have been rejected by the breeder.

    Guess if you are after Tosai you will not be looking to buy until late spring next year?

    What variety are you considering? If you simply want fish that will get big then have a chat with Adam Byer and see if you can pinch some of his Mukashi spawn

    Dave
    I am very tempted to have a go at Adams Mukashi grow and show starting next month

  10. #7
    im interested in that Feline, where can i find out about it, is it open to anybody ?
    Thanks
    Dave

  11. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    im interested in that Feline, where can i find out about it, is it open to anybody ?
    Thanks
    Dave
    Hiya

    Shooting Stars 2018 - Adam Byer Koi

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  13. #9
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai phil45's Avatar
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    i have booked in for some ,,,,,,,,,,

  14. #10
    Thank you Dave, im going to enter that straight away.
    I plan to attend on the day to pick.

    David

  15. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Never easy Chris as buying and growing on Tosai will always be a gamble.

    You have to accept that if you are buying Japanese fish, unless you are paying very significant amounts for "special" koi you are looking at fish that have been rejected by the breeder.

    Guess if you are after Tosai you will not be looking to buy until late spring next year?

    What variety are you considering? If you simply want fish that will get big then have a chat with Adam Byer and see if you can pinch some of his Mukashi spawn

    Dave
    Hi Dave,

    I brought a female Tosai Sanke off Mike at Yumi koi earlier this year, the breeder was the Uncle of Saki, apparently he used to choose the parent stock for Saki, but has now gone on his own, so regarding this koi, are you saying it wont be any good as it hasn't been kept by the breeder? and when you say significant amounts, what sort of figures are we disguising?

  16. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koicrazysteve View Post
    Hi Dave,

    I brought a female Tosai Sanke off Mike at Yumi koi earlier this year, the breeder was the Uncle of Saki, apparently he used to choose the parent stock for Saki, but has now gone on his own, so regarding this koi, are you saying it wont be any good as it hasn't been kept by the breeder? and when you say significant amounts, what sort of figures are we disguising?
    Hi Chris, what I said was that koi sold as Tosai are fish that are rejected by a breeder to grow to Nisai.. A breeder will only retain koi that they consider will improve/ attract a better price at Nisai.

  17. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Jussai RJW2012's Avatar
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    A matter of size

    Would you consider this Tosai from Sakai a reject?



    It was ‘fairly significant’ cost wise - I disagree that all Tosai are rejects, I may have also misunderstood the point.

    Rob.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by RJW2012; 25-09-2018 at 04:15 PM.

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  19. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJW2012 View Post
    Would you consider this Tosai from Sakai a reject?



    It was ‘fairly significant’ cost wise - I disagree that all Tosai are rejects, I may have also misunderstood the point.

    Rob.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    its not my opinion that counts but that of the breeder...

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  21. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Jussai RJW2012's Avatar
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    I understood Breeders will sell Tosai selected for growing on to Nisai, having re-read your comments I think that is what your saying.

    Rob.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  22. #16
    It makes Tosai sound like your not getting the money's worth! if your paying towards a £1000 for a Tosai surely this koi must have a good future, of cause their always a gamble, but the risk and at this price surely lies better with the koi keeper, or am I missing something?

  23. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koicrazysteve View Post
    It makes Tosai sound like your not getting the money's worth! if your paying towards a £1000 for a Tosai surely this koi must have a good future, of cause their always a gamble, but the risk and at this price surely lies better with the koi keeper, or am I missing something?
    Tosai will always represent a much greater gamble than Nisai.

    Price is a difficult one, the price that a breeder sells at (ie how he values the koi) can have very little bearing on the price that a dealer will ask for the fish.. and you will never know the breeder price... The only solution is to assess the fish, ask about its history, parents etc and make a call on whether you are happy to buy at the price. Personally I wouldn't use price asked as any great indicator of whether it will end us as a "decent" fish.

  24. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    As for Tosai being rejects, I bought 2x Sanke and 1x Kohaku, all Sakai and measuring 8-10cm. £50 for the lot. This was in May.

    Their main purpose was to help cycle the new pond, but also I was fascinated to watch them grow and see how the colours change.

    The Kohaku hasn't changed colours but body shape has improved dramatically.
    One Sanke has developed so much Sumi its looking more like a Showa.

    The other Sanke is unrecognisable as the same Koi. It has completely changed colour so many times I have no idea what it may look like within a Year. It was quite a heavily patterned Koi to begin with and looked like too much Sumi would come through, but now its almost completely white but with splashes of Sumi and Beni.

    I will never know what it looked like at the time it was culled and why it was culled, but I guess it demonstrates that a Tosai can turn into anything as it develops.

    Admittedly the body shape has turned long and skinny so maybe they somehow spotted that potential for poor form when it was culled.

  25. #19
    Some dealer specialise in Tosai like Drew at koi Waterlife, he seems to have a certain amount of success with Tosai, as Dave J said, know the parent stock and lineage is very important with Tosai, most dealers won't know this, so if you do decide to go down the Tosai route, pick your dealer carefully.

  26. #20
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion bowsaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    Thank you Dave, im going to enter that straight away.
    I plan to attend on the day to pick.

    David

    They look good, whats the rough ballpark area in the country they are based?
    the slow pond build thread

 

 
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