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  1. #81
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Dave,

    I am regularly dosing the bucket to try and achieve a constant 5 ppm, so ppm being variable wasn't part of the bucket calcs.

    In total I added 12ml of ammonia to the bucket over 24 hours. The ammonia is 20% pure.

    Therefore: 20% of 12ml = 2.4 ml of pure ammonia added (and consumed by the K1).


    To work out that the pond had 1.4ml of pure ammonia content I used an online calculator!
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 19-09-2018 at 07:33 PM.

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  3. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    But we talk about the Nexus taking months/years to mature yet the 60 litres K1 I removed and placed in a bucket (70 litres of water) has already gobbled up 2.4 ml of pure ammonia in 24 hours.

    The pond had daily readings over the last 4-5 days of 0.2 ppm which equates to 1.4 ml of pure ammonia that didn't shift. (Although obviously ammonia is being produced constantly so the real maths are beyond me).

    What I'm trying to say is that the evidence suggests conversion is much better in a bucket than in a pond. Ok, this is probably obvious, but at least I've proven it.
    if that new 60 litres of k1 is proving to be, at least mature to some degree then, id be banging it back in the nexus, because what ever it was doing for the pond, it now isnt.

  4. #83
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi familyman,
    Certainly sounds logical.
    The bucket definitely clearing ammonia, but nitrites still high so will play with it for a few days for a better picture of the true performance.

    Same with the 15 litres in the Nexus, I'm interested to see how parameters cope for a few days. Watched an EA video where he encourages as little K1 that you can get away with to build a s more robust bio film. Would be good if I could prove or disprove that.

    I'm home for 4 days now so can afford to monitor, keeping the hose pipe at hand for any emergency water changes.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  5. #84
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Bucket Experiment Continued:

    The 60 litres of K1 in the bucket is consuming ammonia but not nitrite which is now off the chart. Remember this has been in the Nexus for over 5 Months.
    This is replicating exactly what was happening in the pond and I do not understand why this is.

    That brand new 15 litres of K1 I fishless cycled did so initially in mature fish tank water, but after 48 hours I only used water taken from the pond, so the water itself is an unlikely culprit.

    Pond:

    Pond ammonia level has now gone to zero with just the 15 litres of new fishless cycled K1.
    Pond Nitrite initially dropped from 2 ppm to 1.5 ppm within the first 24 hours, but is now stuck at 1.5 ppm.

  6. #85
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    60L K1 Bucket day 3:

    5ppm ammonia being consumed within 8 - 12 hours.
    Nitrite not being consumed at all from what I can make out. Trying to keep nitrite below 8ppm through partial water changes.


    15L Cycled K1 Pond Day 3:
    Ammonia: 0 mg/l
    Nitrite: Back up to 2 mg/l (Going to carry out partial water change now to get it down to 1 mg/l)


    An EA technical rep wants to come round for a look / take samples and will be calling to make an appointment next Week.

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  8. #86
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I am sure you've said this somewhere else already RS2000, but how are you dechlorinating all the water you're changing in the pond and in these bucket tests?

    I'm just thinking of all the things that might knock back or disadvantage the population of nitrobacter whilst not affecting nitrosomonas so much. Nitrobacter is certainly believed to be more fragile and slower to establish, so if something was not quite 'chemically right' in your water or setup it would stand to reason those bugs are most affected.

  9. #87
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Feline,

    I'm open to absolutely any suggestions so happy for you to question anything.

    ST Crystals - 65 grams diluted in 500ml of water.

    Treating 10ml of that solution per 450 litres of tap water.

    Tap water is hosed into a separate part of the pond that takes 900 litres to reach overflow. So I add 20ml of solution to that section, fill it up with the hose, then turn pump back on and that section overflows into the main pond at a rate of around 40 litres per minute.

    An old picture part way during the build to give an idea of how it looks:

    IMG_20180504_195659.jpg


    EDIT: Forgot to add, I'm using pond water for the current bucket test.
    On the previous bucket test I used mature fish tank water at first, then once it was consuming ammonia/nitrite I started using pond water and it continued to mature really, really fast.

    Today's parameters:

    Bucket day 4 - 60 litres 5 month old K1 from pond:
    Ammonia = 0
    Nitrite = off the scale

    Pond day 4 - 15 litres of the new bucket cycled K1 (that was gobbling up nitrite like you wouldn't believe):
    Ammonia = 0
    Nitrite = 2 mg/l. This is despite a huge water change last night that dropped it from 2 mg/l down to 1 mg/l
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 22-09-2018 at 02:57 PM.

  10. #88
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    One thing I've definitely noticed is that on youtube videos everyone's Nexus is boiling away like crazy.

    This seems a pretty typical example:



    Mine doesn't move anything like this, mine just simmers and there's a dead patch where some media collects and just wobbles about. Could that be a factor? I'll take a video if it helps.

    Pump is minimum output of 60 litres per minute ( run through 3 metres of tubing which probably restricts it slightly. Its rated at 80lpm max). Its what was recommended by KWB when I bought it, but they did say if I increase substantially from the initial 50 litres of K1 I may need to consider upgrading.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 22-09-2018 at 03:11 PM.

  11. #89
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    It might be worth you changing over to use air stones in the Nexus to see if having a more even turnover of media helps at all. A lot of Nexus owners seem to do this as the air ring gives patchy results.

    If you've been using the same batch of ST it could perhaps be worth confirming that it is actually working? Maybe switch over to a different dechlorinator liquid just to make absolutely sure that it is not something really daft like that at the root of your problems?

    As a vet I am trained to compile a list of possible causes in order of likelihood and then work down it finding out a way of absolutely ruling out each thing. You have to take nothing for granted and question everything during that process. I think you probably need to think like that in your situation too to get to the bottom of this!

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  13. #90
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Feline,

    I also have API tap water conditioner (goes a long way compared to similar products), and just used that for a couple of Months with no difference. I use the ST crystals on my goldfish tanks which get 75% water changes fortnightly and they are fine. In fact, I've even done those 75% water changes with straight tap water a couple of times after realising I'm out of dechlorinator and never had a problem.

    I've ordered a 10 way airline manifold, 4mm ID airline and 10 airstones so will have a play with these when they arrive.


    Bucket Day 6:
    Still consuming ammonia but not as quickly as I'd like considering the volume of media. (5ppm ammonia went down to 0.25 ppm ammonia in 9 hours today).
    Nitrite reading after that 9 hours was 4 ppm so there does appear to be a level of nitrite consumption beginning considering the (pond) water already has 2 ppm to begin with. I'm doing 2 x 50% water changes daily to keep the PH up.


    Pond Day 6:
    Ammonia has crept up to 0.25 ppm but I did feed heavily yesterday plus a treat of 40 grams of mussels.
    Nitrite 2 ppm.


    I have an interesting observation on the bucket test. The pond water has 1 ppm Phosphate, but after a day in the bucket the Phosphate levels increase to over 2 ppm. Anyone know why this might be?
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 24-09-2018 at 07:41 PM.

  14. #91
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Bucket Day 8:
    Ammonia Conversion has sped up.
    Nitrite conversion definitely now taking place.

    I've stopped measuring ppm so often as its using up too much test kit. So a 4ml ammonia dose in the morning reads zero by mid afternoon, and in that time nitrites are consumed right down to 0.5 ppm. Within a couple of days I expect ammonia and nitrites to be reading zero within 4-6 hours of a dose.

    Pond Day 8:
    The cycled K1 clearly isn't cutting it for nitrites. Ammonia is generally zero with the occasional spike to 0.25 after heavy feeding, but nitrites are constantly between 1.5 and 2 mg/l. Nitrites however are not going beyond 2mg/l.

  15. #92
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Airstones and manifold arrived today, definitely a much more efficient use of air and so much quieter, definitely recommend this solution as its potentially saved me having to buy a bigger air pump.

    Got another thread specifically about the pond nitrite problem, but for the benefit of Frim, the EA Technical rep said exactly what Frim said!
    Said I was doing everything perfectly and was at a total loss.

    All he could think of was to add a couple of really big hungry Koi, or reduce the K1 even further. He said 5 litres of K1 should easily handle the 30 grams of food I'm currently feeding daily. So, once the current bucket is processing ammonia/nitrite at full speed, I need to remove all K1 from the Nexus and then drop in just 5 litres from the bucket and see what happens.

    EDIT: Pond Parameters are getting worse as phosphates have gone and nitrate isn't going up.

    Ammonia 0
    Nitrite 2 mg/l
    Nitrate 10 mg/l (comes out the tap at 10, so probably no nitrite conversion taking place at all).
    PH 8.2
    KH 10
    GH 15
    Phosphate 0 (This was 1 ppm last week, so don't know why its dropped, and UV is off, but filter bacteria probably need some).
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 27-09-2018 at 07:47 PM.

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  17. #93
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion bowsaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Hi Feline,

    I'm open to absolutely any suggestions so happy for you to question anything.

    ST Crystals - 65 grams diluted in 500ml of water.

    Treating 10ml of that solution per 450 litres of tap water.

    Tap water is hosed into a separate part of the pond that takes 900 litres to reach overflow. So I add 20ml of solution to that section, fill it up with the hose, then turn pump back on and that section overflows into the main pond at a rate of around 40 litres per minute.

    An old picture part way during the build to give an idea of how it looks:

    IMG_20180504_195659.jpg


    EDIT: Forgot to add, I'm using pond water for the current bucket test.
    On the previous bucket test I used mature fish tank water at first, then once it was consuming ammonia/nitrite I started using pond water and it continued to mature really, really fast.

    Today's parameters:

    Bucket day 4 - 60 litres 5 month old K1 from pond:
    Ammonia = 0
    Nitrite = off the scale

    Pond day 4 - 15 litres of the new bucket cycled K1 (that was gobbling up nitrite like you wouldn't believe):
    Ammonia = 0
    Nitrite = 2 mg/l. This is despite a huge water change last night that dropped it from 2 mg/l down to 1 mg/l
    so your using sterile water for the pond top up and water full of microbial life for the bucket, that alone throws out the ability to make any meaningful comparison between each setup, before all the other variables

    if the media in the bucket is in any way seeded return to the pond and stop the stock being subjected stress if possible, you can then start seeding more media and in turn add it to the pond, or just let it colonise in the pond and skip the faff of testing and maintaining the bucket and concentrate all efforts into the stock setup
    the slow pond build thread

  18. #94
    im stumped, so the ea rep said you havent got enough fish making enough waste to encourage bacteria to develop, ? how can that be if you have an ammonia colony and nitrite at 2, throwing 2 big koi in will make your water ten times worse.
    If it was me id just throw all media ive got in the nexus and cut feeding back, whilst doping trickle in and out, until it comes good. Then the filter will just slowly grow as your fish do.

    Im absolutely confused by all this, I dont know how you are going mad. Trouble is so many different ideas dont help.

    I think half the problem is keep altering things every few weeks before its had chance to mature, keep putting media in and taking It out its just not helping. Everything ive ever heard would just say, put all your k1 in and leave it.

    I just dont understand this reduce your k1 to 5 litres nonsense, he says 5 litres of mature k1 can cope with 50 grams a day ...well ill bet that suggestion doesnt work right now. You've been putting more than 5 litres in the nexus that was at least partly mature from your bucket experiment haven't you, and hows that worked out?

    Why not just have 1 piece of k1 and it can build up a bio film a foot thick

  19. #95
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I'm stumped to mate, but that was his suggestion.

    Moving media about has only been a recent thing after 5 months of running the Nexus so I wouldn't agree that I keep changing things as such.

    Evidence suggests that the nitrobacter on mature media is dying off within 48 hours of being in my system so his theory is that less media will keep a bigger food supply for the nitrobacter that is there.

    I failed to ask the question about why that would be the case when there's a constant 2ppm supply of nitrite in the system.

    Visually he said the media looks mature so was baffled as I am.

    Attachment 25861

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 28-09-2018 at 03:04 PM. Reason: typo

  20. #96
    that might make sense if nitrobacter only grew on the media but its everywhere on every surface.

  21. #97
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I have to confess that I've given up with all this and won't be following EA's instruction to reduce to just 5 litres of K1 in the Nexus.

    Since reducing from 60 litres down to 15 litres (of bucket cycled media) in the Nexus, parameters didn't really improve and today nitrite is over 2 ppm and ammonia has spiked up to 0.5 ppm.

    The 60 litres that I removed and kept in the bucket was consuming up to 15 ml of ammonia per day, and nitrite was also being consumed albeit at a slower rate, so I've put the whole lot back in the Nexus and will just have to wait for it to sort itself out.

    What really convinced me this wasn't going to work is the fact that since removing all that media from the nexus, the mirco K1 in the static section has turned dark brown, an indication (to me at least) that media is lacking.

    Adding 6 airstones to the Nexus has dramatically improved the aeration and movement of the media so hopefully this will help. It's so much quieter with airstones too.

    I've kept back 15 litres of K1 in the bucket for emergencies, not necessarily pond emergencies as I've just bought a load of Fancy Goldfish breeding stock to try and keep my Globe Eye strain going which will obviously increase load to the tank filters.

    Its fair to say my first 6 Months of having a Koi pond hasn't been enjoyable in the slightest. These are problems I've never experienced before, but its also the first time I've ever used a Nexus / Moving Bed method of bio filtration.

  22. #98
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Don't lose heart- the increased air flow in the bio section could make a massive difference.
    It does take over a year for a brand new pond to reach anything like a state we would call 'maturity', I believe longer. In a years time you should hopefully be well sorted.

  23. #99
    Have you got a lid on your nexus, what temp is your water?

    is your pond fibre glassed ?, I was awake this morning at 5 am and thinking about your pond , I got to wondering if something is leeching into your water thats killing nitrobacter, hence maybe some fibre glass maybe not cured correctly , or some wood treatment getting in the water

  24. #100
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thank you both Feline and Familyman for the concern.

    Got a Koi sitting on the bottom at the moment which I really hate to see, although I don't suspect nitrite to be the direct cause, he's been using his body to swim for a few days (as opposed to just fins), and slowly sinks to the bottom when relaxed, appears to be swim bladder related. He ate a shed load of high protein food the evening before temperatures suddenly dropped so that's possibly contributed, although I've always thought there's something odd about the shape of his belly. He was skinny when I bought him/her so didn't notice it initially. Plus there seems to be historic "scars" around the vent area.

    Anyway I digress but its probably contributed to the disheartened feeling.

    As for your questions:

    - Not fiberglassed. Using a 1mm EPDM Gordon Low box welded liner.

    - Decking on the sleepers at the top of the pond which overhangs by an inch. Hadn't considered it as a potential problem tbh, but thinking about it we didn't get a single drop of rain between 27th May and early July and the nitrite problem was prevalent throughout that period. Maybe still a contender, but it is slightly angled to slope water away from the pond so any contact water getting into the pond would be extremely minimal just off the leading edge.

    - Pond temperature 14C at the day's high, 10-12C first thing in the morning.

    - Nexus has a home made lid using polyethylene foam carpet underlay. Already checked it out and its non-toxic.

    If I can get home from work in daylight I'll video the whole set up and post here to see if it offers any further lightbulb moments.


    Back thinking about what EA were saying regarding the lack of waste.... I have 165cm of fish in a 7000 litre pond and feeding an average of 30 grams a day (up to 50 grams occasionally), surely there should be enough waste here to maintain cycled media. Like you say, if ammonia and nitrite is constantly present throughout the system then it shouldn't matter how much media there is.

 

 
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